On the Money Podcast with Pascal St-Jean, April 23, 2026

Speaker Key:

MH: Michael Hainsworth

PSG: Pascal Saint-Jean

00:00:00

MH: Hello, I'm Michael Hainsworth. For the first time in the modern age, the technology is the investable asset. And by 2036, investing in digital assets will be as commonplace as stocks and bonds. But why wait for the age of moon bases and robot butlers? As we've discussed, digital assets have evolved in just the last two or three years. What does digital asset investing look like in 10 years from now, 15 years from now?

00:00:33

PSG: It's going to be called investing, just like how the Internet has now become the infrastructure for almost our daily lives, how we work, how we communicate, how we transfer information. Everything's now ubiquitous because the Internet just powers everything and we've built interfaces around that. That is exactly what's happening. So tokenization of assets, native blockchain issuance of securities, global access, and all wrapped with simplified layers, whether it's brokerage applications or mobile applications that can access all of these types of digital assets around the world. So from an interface perspective, it will just seem like if you're doing general investing, but under the hood, everything will be digital assets.

00:01:16

MH: It's a brave new world, my friend. 

00:01:18

PSG: Absolutely.

00:01:19

MH: Coming up, Pascal Saint-Jean, CEO of 3iQ Digital Asset Management, on how digital assets have grown up They’re no longer defined by their volatility, but how they generate returns. But first...

00:01:32

MH: When we last talked about tariffs, we focused on how investors react, that companies hesitate, and that capital waits. And that's where portfolios break down. The question isn't what happens next, it's how do we prepare before it does. Start with growth. High-risk assets still matter, but we need to focus on companies that can adapt, not just ride the cycle. Think U.S. large caps with pricing power, Canadian energy producers benefiting from constrained supply, emerging market exporters that can reroute trade flows. These are not just growth assets. They adjust when the conditions change. But we also need to counterweight. Low-risk assets aren't about playing defence. They're about staying power. Government bonds tend to rally when growth slows. Infrastructure generates steady regular income. Dividend-paying banks in Canada provide the stability through balance sheets that are strong. They don't win in good times. They let you hold on in the bad times. So don't just diversify across asset classes. Diversify across outcomes. While I don't know your specific financial situation, advisors will typically suggest 50 to 60% in global growth equities, as much as 30% in high quality bonds, and anywhere from 10 to 20% in real assets and what's known as alternative assets. Because these tariff wars aren't a one-off shock. This is regime change. And the goal isn't to avoid volatility, it's to be positioned for it. Pascal, right out of the gate here, I need a clean definition. What exactly is a digital asset as an investment class?

00:03:19

PSG: Definitely, if you asked me that question a few years ago, there would have been the what you can invest in and then the hypothetical. But where we are today is a lot different. And so I'll give you two clear definitions because they lead in two different paths. The first is really digital assets as infrastructure. So we refer to that if we talk about Solana or Ethereum or Layer Ones, things of that nature. What that really means is you're essentially owning a part of the network that enables sort of this revolution in tokenization and stablecoins and real world assets and all these things that we're going to talk about. So think of digital assets as owning a part of the underlying infrastructure. And then the other side is what that technology enables. The audience may have heard of stable coins. They may have heard of tokenized securities. They may have heard of real world assets or tokenized art, real estate, et cetera. That's essentially investments or assets that people are used to and understand. People will understand fine art. People understand real estate. People will understand finance. private equity funds. But essentially, those assets can be digitized onto the blockchain and made more accessible and easier to distribute. So when we talk about digital assets, there's the technology side where you could own a part of the technology and the infrastructure. And then there's the what can that infrastructure produce? And you can also own that part. So there's two ways of looking at it. But fundamentally, both are considered digital assets.

00:04:48

MH: Most people, when they hear digital assets, they just think Bitcoin and call it a day. And we know the reputation that that particular vehicle has. When most people, though, hear about alternatives, to your point, they think diversification, correlation, volatility. But you're framing it just a little bit differently here. What are they missing?

00:05:10

PSG: Fundamentally, we still treat them as alternatives and we're seeing a renaissance of alternatives in general. I think more and more of the institutional side, which we deal with a lot, their portfolios have definitely included several types of alternatives. And when we say alternatives, we're talking what we would consider traditional, more real estate, private equity, private credit, as well as art and real estate and things of that nature. But those things are hard to gain access to, and they're not necessarily meant for your everyday person, particularly on a global scale. And so the revolution that's happening with what digital asset infrastructure enables is essentially the digitization of these types of assets and the distribution and the ownership. But those things are hard to gain access to, and they're not necessarily meant for your everyday person, particularly on a global scale. And so the revolution that's happening with what digital asset infrastructure enables is essentially the digitization of these types of assets and the distribution and the ownership. And so you're going to see a renaissance at the retail all the way to the institutional level of global access to what we consider normal alternative assets. With that being said, for those who are interested in the infrastructure side, so if you believe what... digital asset infrastructure can empower individuals and you want to own part of that, then you have to start thinking about, well, how does that fit in my alternative mindset? And most people will say, well, how are they alternatives if they're all correlated to the stock market or when there's a liquidity crunch? the volatility is the same and if not even higher than the stock market, et cetera. So there are really in our mind, two ways of looking at alternatives and correlation. One is correlation in terms of price action and the other was correlation in terms of how they generate their underlying returns. And when it comes to digital assets infrastructure, how will they generate the value or how investors should perceive the value is definitely uncorrelated to equities or bonds. And so that's why we still treat digital assets as alternatives because the infrastructure side definitely get their return profile in a completely different way. And we could talk about what that looks like from a network effect. or bonds. And so that's why we still treat digital assets as alternatives because the infrastructure side definitely get their return profile in a completely different way. And we could talk about what that looks like from a network effect. And if you're investing in digital assets, aka alternatives that have been tokenized or digitized, then you're definitely allocating to alternatives as well.

00:07:15

MH: It sounds like digital assets get their value from, at least on the infrastructure side, your network adoption, your usage, very different from a stock or a bond. And historically, if you believed in a technology, you bought the companies behind it So this time feels different.

00:07:30

PSG: That's a great way of framing it. We talked about it often. If you were a fan of search engine technology, you'd say, well, I'll buy Google. If you were a fan of electric vehicles, you'd say, well, I'll do my research and maybe I choose Tesla. Or if you weren't savvy enough to do a deep dive on securities analysis, or you didn't want to do a deep dive on the underlying companies, you may sell by a basket or an ETF. And so the same thing here, essentially from a digital asset perspective, the biggest difference is it's the first time in history where the technology is also the asset. And so when you mentioned before, if you were a fan of the technology about the company, in this case, if you are a believer or a fan or believe in what's being transformed, which is sort of the digitization of financial infrastructure using these new digital asset layer ones and blockchain technologies, then you can actually own a piece of that network, which is completely different than previous sort of versions of the Web. you know beforehand web one web two everything that we've had till today you had to go the equity route but now you can actually own a part of the infrastructure uh and the protocol itself which is super fascinating and that's why some individuals uh although getting more educated are still having a hard time you know figuring out where uh the these fit in a portfolio and if and why they should allocate to them.

00:08:56

MH: You have to be a computer geek like me to get it. You don't have to be a geek to understand this stuff, but it certainly helps as a nerd like me. This is right up my alley. But for whom is this an appropriate investment?

00:09:10

PSG: All jokes aside, I think five plus years ago, these projects were coming alive and there were many, many projects And that's where maybe some of the confusion, there's thousands of protocols out there. Which one do I invest in and what do they all serve? And definitely things have evolved. What we used to say is this, you know, this is basically a startup technology priced in real time, which, again, was something that was never – they never existed before. If you think about, you know, my first company that I had, you know, 30 years ago, uh, a few people in a basement working on a startup. If imagine if that company, if my company was marked to market in real time on some form of market, the volatility would be crazy, right? For four guys building technology, being valued by global markets in real time. And so digital assets infrastructure being publicly available and having a price associated to it, uh, This is what creates the complexity. Now, fast forward to today, the biggest difference is the technology promise has now become a technology reality. We're seeing large institutions, whether it's DTCC, utilizing Ethereum, Ethereum and Kenton Network to tokenize basically all of their securities that they settle on. We're seeing large asset managers like BlackRock and others starting to do tests. I mean, here in Tokyo right now, a lot of the large banks and institutions are doing proof of concepts as well. They're looking to tokenize and issue JGBs or Japanese bonds directly on chain. So everyone's testing out this infrastructure because there's a lot of benefits to it. The biggest difference is also the winning networks, whether it's Solana, XRP, Ethereum, Canton and others have become clear dominant forces compared to many years ago. And also, finally, the use cases. We've all heard of the stable coins explosion recently. Everyone's talking about tokenized securities, whether it's Robinhood or the NASDAQ or the NYSE. Everyone's testing sort of these digital rails. And so as we move into the next few years, we're going to see more and more of the conversions there. And so people are understanding the use cases now, which many years ago was a promise but not reality. So it's real. Today, we have dominant infrastructure or dominant protocols, whereas again, several years ago, that didn't exist. And we're seeing prominent institutions allocate capital, time, and efficiency. And so where we stand today is a renaissance in that technology, maturity in the asset and clear regulation. And so we believe that these assets are potentially for everyone. Position sizing, of course, dependent on your understanding of the technology and your desire and comfort with that volatility. But digital asset investing at the infrastructure level can be meaningful for people's portfolio. And the reality is it's a new class that could bring more diversification to anyone's portfolio.

00:12:10

MH: So digital assets have gone from speculative gamble to infrastructure investment. Bitcoin gets all the glory, but it's about value being created. Here's where the conversation, though, gets uncomfortable. If the value is real, why does it feel so intangible? And how do you invest in something that doesn't behave like anything you've owned before? I can hear the skeptics screaming in the background. There's no traditional cash flow. The evolving nature of the valuation framework, the ecosystem evolves quickly as well, and that creates uncertainty. So if the fundamentals are similar to any other investment, how do you speak to someone who says digital assets feel too different? This doesn't feel tangible.

00:12:55

PSG: When we look at other alternatives that today have become mainstream, whether it's private equity or private credit, They're becoming more and more mainstream. Yes, institutions came in first, but now you're starting to see some of those assets starting to be made available to general public, whether it's through business development corporations, close-end funds, things of that nature. And so they're becoming more and more available to the general public and being brought into those portfolios. But if we backtrack 10, 20 years ago, Those types of investments to the general public and potentially to some advisors was a little alien unless you knew how private credit was underwritten, how companies were assessed. If you think about it, lending to a private corporation is a completely different way of investing than analyzing a company and saying, I understand that company. understand i could read their p l they're profitable i'll invest their and their equity or vice versa i want diversification through bonds i could look at the bond terms and the duration uh and their rating are they triple a or double a rated bonds and make an allocation that way so your traditional 60 40 portfolio when you started including alternatives felt foreign to most individuals now fast forward to today again those feel more normal So it's the same thing now. It's a new asset class. It's a new source of alternative investing. And individuals still sometimes have that skepticism of it feels foreign. But we can say that over the past several years, as we do education sessions, as we talk to advisors, as we talk to investors, whether it's institutions or retail, the level of comprehension has definitely risen. People understand what this technology serves. They read the news. They see the action. And so fundamentally, then the next question becomes, which one's going to be the winner? And like any new technology, that's always hard to tell. Just like imagine a new industry and you have five, six companies that go public at the same time, which one will be the winner?

00:15:02

MH: We're seeing it in AI right now. Not all of them are going to win.

00:15:06

PSG: They're not all going to win, right? So can you make a bet on Google because their infrastructure? Do you make the bet on the startups like Anthropic or someone else? You're bang on, right? So how do you invest in AI today would be the same question. Do you go on the private route and bet on the startups, or you just bet on Google saying they're big enough and their models are decent enough? So we're right there, same sort of analysis with digital asset investing. The scepticisms are which ones are going to win. I see the use cases. And so our recommendation is diversification unless you really want to take the time and dive into each protocol and understand the tokenomics, the development, the projects being built on that. If you love analyzing individual companies, then you could do the same with individual protocols. But if you're more of an investor that feels I'm long an industry or a trend, then the good news is because of regulatory clarity, you can now do the same with digital assets.

00:16:01

MH: I want to ask you what you would say to Warren Buffett on this topic, because he is famous for avoiding investments he doesn't understand. What would he need to understand before allocating here?

00:16:11

PSG: Warren Buffett says, you know, he doesn't do single investments unless he truly understands it. At the same time, he's realized that he has missed certain trends, but he's been okay with that.

00:16:24

MH: Yeah, I think he's done well.

00:16:26

PSG: He's done well either way, right? But, you know, if we look at Berkshire, for example, Apple, you know, which he avoided technology for many, many, many years. And that's okay because the internet was new and he still fully didn't understand the potential, but he started seeing the trend, particularly when the cell phones and Apple released the iPhone. I think that's when he started realizing the trend was real and that your term was everyone could have a connected device And so they started allocating to Apple at that point, and Apple was a source of most of their returns in the past decade. So fundamentally, when it comes to digital asset investing, I would say the same is true whether it's for an individual stock or an individual private fund or an individual protocol with digital assets, if you cannot take the time and the energy to fully understand how it functions, its potential, and do the deep dive, then don't do single asset investing, whether it's a stock, a fund, or digital assets. But if you've done enough research or understand the trends, Then the solution is diversification. That's the same thing I would say to Warren Buffett. He always believed in big bets. So he believed in deep conviction, deep research, big bets. That's worked well for him and for institutional investors. But for the average investor working with his or her advisor, they tend to stick to trends and general portfolio themes versus individuals. So I would say to Warren Buffett, look at the trends. And if you believe that the financial institutions are reengineering their infrastructure, then what's happened in tech and the internet is about to happen with digital assets as well. And so maybe have a closer look.

00:18:15

MH: Super important aspect is understanding your core thesis for the investment in the first place. What is the problem that this solves? How does adoption grow? What drives that long-term value as well? And what's interesting to me about digital assets as alternative investments is there was a time when the barrier to entry was incredibly high. You had to understand what a wallet was, what custody meant, what exchanges were. How has the investing in digital assets evolved with ETFs and institutional products. –

00:18:45

PSG: Everything has transformed in the past two and a half years, whether it's regulatory clarity, pretty much in every jurisdiction, including Canada, where last year, everything's been super well codified in terms of what digital asset protocols can go into an ETF, custody regulation, stablecoin regulation, how digital assets are treated on balance sheets. So if it's a digital asset that's been tokenized or a traditional asset that's been tokenized, it's treated as a look through. which is good. If it's a digital asset native infrastructure, then it's treated differently on an institutional balance sheet. So the regulators globally have done a great job at understanding, it took quite some time, but understanding and codifying the different types of digital assets. And so where we land today is infrastructure. So digital asset infrastructure regulation, stablecoin regulation or money transmission, and then tokenization. which is great. When we look at infrastructure, custody, the large players, large institutions have either partnered with large regulated digital asset custodians like BitGo, which recently went public, or Coinbase or Anchorage and others, or some are looking into their own technology or their own custody like State Street and others. So custody has transformed, regulation has transformed, liquidity is now global And so the ETF, what they've enabled is simplified access, right? So like you mentioned, where do I buy it? How do I custody it, et cetera, et cetera. That has also been simplified with the ETFs. And so today, the infrastructure and counterparties are institutional. Rules and regulations are clear. So it's not like if you're investing in something and taking a bet that maybe regulators will shut it down. So that's been resolved in a positive way. And then your vehicles have become global and easy to access. And so it's really as easy as it's ever been to research and potentially make an allocation to this asset class.

00:20:49

MH: Every new asset class looks foreign in the early days, but while the tech is new, the thesis is not. Understand the trend, diversify into it. So now that we understand the theory, how do we allocate? Digital assets are a strategic allocation, not a speculative bet. They've grown up and matured to the point where 60-40 needs a third entry in the ratio. Is this a satellite position or something more meaningful over time?

00:21:14

PSG: I want to be fair to all alternatives because I'm going to go back to the earlier question. Definitely, the modern portfolio is evolving. The 60-40 is evolving to 60-40-50. slash plus alternatives. We're seeing that across the board. Like I mentioned, when we work with family offices and large institutions, the 60/40 is no longer stocks and bonds. It's stocks and alternatives. Within that alternatives, a basket, so the global market portfolio. Essentially, it's an aggregate of all the assets divided by market cap. What we're seeing when we do that analysis, It's essentially alternatives grow each year and the size of digital assets within that basket grows a little bit every year as well. And so what we're seeing globally at the GNP is digital assets range from 1% to 3%. depending on where people are at from a global scale. We've seen that as well. Fidelity, as well as Morgan Stanley and others are sort of advising a satellite position of 1% to 3% and 3% to 5% depending if it's the conservative is zero, moderate is 1% to 2%, and then more aggressive is 3% to 5%. And so we're starting to see guidance from some of the large asset managers, advisors,   This is still art and science. It's more around what kind of convexity could they bring? What kind of diversification could they bring? But at the same time, if we look at the need and desire to diversify portfolios, And the opportunity that tokenizing alternatives, whether it's private credit, private equity, art, etc., bringing those onto the blockchain, making them more accessible, more easy to inject into people's alternative baskets. So now, all of a sudden, the infrastructure that we're seeing people allocate to their portfolios is also enabling the alternative renaissance. And so fundamentally, as we fast forward, the general portfolio will change. The infrastructure, aka the blockchain themselves, are seen as a satellite position, but they will enable a complete transformation of what portfolios will look like because of the digitization of all these different assets that can now be brought into the blockchain and owned fractionally by investors around the world.

00:23:35

MH: So as the space matures, you deeper total deeper into the water kind of thing over time because of that evolving maturity of the investment thesis. And I can imagine as well that to your point about easier access in how ETFs and fund managers have helped make this more accessible, broadly speaking, they've got a role in all of that in that advisory capacity.

00:23:58

PSG: Absolutely. One is from an education perspective. So essentially we're seeing more and more having a desire to understand the space. Some of them is just they're fascinated by what's happening from the technology perspective. Others, it's client demand and they want to have an educated conversation with their clients. It's becoming harder and harder if the client's saying, "I'm interested in learning more and potentially allocating." It's hard to not have that conversation. And at the same time, with all the news and the evolution that's happening, it's hard to ignore as well. And so again, there's never been a better time to get educated. Information is readily out there. The clarity of what is Bitcoin versus what is Ethereum and Solana, their use cases, and not just their hypothetical use cases, their real world use cases have become tangible and real. And so At this point in time, advisors and investors have the tools at their disposal, both from a vehicle perspective to create a diversified portfolio and from an education perspective to have that honest conversation together if it makes sense for them.

00:25:06

MH: As we've discussed, digital assets have evolved in just the last two or three years. What does digital asset investing look like in 10 years from now, 15 years from now?

00:25:15

PSG: It's going to be called investing, just like how the internet has now become the infrastructure for almost our daily lives, how we work, how we communicate, how we transfer information. Everything's now ubiquitous because the internet just powers everything and we've built interfaces around that. That is exactly what's happening. So tokenization of assets, native blockchain issuance of securities, global access, and all wrapped with simplified layers, whether it's brokerage applications or mobile applications that can access all of these types of digital assets around the world. So from an interface perspective, it will just seem like if you're doing general investing, but under the hood, everything will be digital assets. It's a brave new world, my friend. Absolutely.

00:25:59

MH: Thank you for your time and your insight.

00:26:02

PSG: Thank you so much for having me.

00:26:03

MH: So maybe the 40 in the traditional 60/40 ratio of stocks to bonds now should include 1 to 5% in alternative investments like digital assets. As Pascal Saint-Jean explained, the playbook is evolving from skepticism to understanding, from single bets to diversified exposure. And by the time you retire, we'll retire the phrase digital assets to the same bin as information superhighway or cyberspace. We'll just call them the way to ensure your retirement is on the money. I'm Michael Hainsworth. Thanks for joining us.